Everyone grab your Koran! The burning begins soon!

 

 

CIA Afghan Drug Trade- Occupation Abroad, Prisons at Home

 

A pastor in Gainesville, Florida, Terry Jones, has taken it upon himself to channel his god's will in the form of a "Quran Burning". He feels strongly that it is God's will to be a religious bigot. I can't say I'm surprised that this is taking place in Florida. I'm disgusted. 

 

Are we really so blind to believe that any of this is about religion? How can we take our anger for a select group of people and pin it on their entire culture? Since the September 11 attacks almost ten years ago, people of this country have held a disdain for Muslims and all Middle-Eastern people. Every one of them. And now a mosque is being built near ground zero, and people feel that this is disrespectful. Blasphemy! It's blasphemy! They feel this way because the individuals that were blamed for the attacks were Muslims, so why should a mosque be built at ground zero? The Muslims caused this!.......right?

 

Come on. Muslims were effected that day more than any other religious group. Don't you think that Muslim people mourn the attacks just as much as Christians do? Just because there are groups of Muslim people that aim for destruction of our country via Jihad doesn't mean that all Muslims are suddenly guilty. When a Christian in America decides to murder a Muslim in the name of God,  Christianity isn't blamed, the psychopath that pulled the trigger is blamed. So why are fingers continually pointed at every mosque and every man wearing a Thobe? Why are their bibles being burned by American Christians? Who are you to say that their religion is false just because members of their religion were criminals? Their are criminals in every religion! Every group has its good and its evil. -Adam

 

 

~~

 

What I find quite ironic in this version Hate-Go-Round is General Patraeus, the current commander of forces in Afghanistan.  He decided to weigh in against the Quran burning saying it will fan the flames of discontent against Americans on the level of the abuses in Abu Ghraib.  Patraeus, the former commander of HQ Central Command (in charge of all forces in the Middle East region to include Afghanistan) oversaw a drastic escalation in UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) bombings of Afghan/Pakistan villages supposedly housing Taliban/enemy forces.  The fallout out, so to speak, of these bombings were photos of torched babies and women.  Collateral damage perhaps, but when we make the choice to do this, we give the Taliban and other enemies plenty of propaganda like this:

Which is worse General Patraeus?  A burning book or a burning baby? ~ Boda

 

^ Jay, when you post this image you really bring it home and help exemplify some of the Severity behind the topic. A point I'd like to bring to everyone's attention which I believe helps further your point and explains why I  utilized a more "comical" statement at the bottom of this page is that this pastor in Gainsville should not commend such tremendous attention. Let's face it... If Terry Jones were not recieving this much attention who would he be???

 

I think I have an idea.... He'd be some religious crazy nut in Gainesville.

 

So rather than paying so much attention to some crazy, so-called "pastor" whose more than likely stuffing his pockets full of cash from ignorant people's donations and low-blow irresponsible reporting, lets instead urge our reporters and "news" stations to report on more important issues while bringing us more significant images such as what Boda has posted. - Javier

 

Well said, Javier. Adrienne Rich also articulates the connection between censorship and persecution, but emphasizes the need to focus more directly on the innumerable instances of direct attacks on human lives in her poem "The Burning of Paper Instead of the Burning of Children" -ShareRiff

 

 

The point about Patreaus is crucial... The imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not being led by these tactless, extremist-Christian charlatans who want to make a big show of their bigotry by holding a sensationalistic book burning. Their reactionary political theatrics function to distract us from the real-life bloodshed and destruction our government is wreaking on a global scale. The real culprits of genocide are more strategic than Pastor Jones the Child Pornographer, and his ilk of misguided followers. For imperialists like General Patreaus, we must always cover up our mission to control and exploit Iraqi and Afghani resources and reap massive profits for private security firms and the defense industry, under the guise of "stabilizing" the country and "spreading democracy."

Most importantly, Imperialism is in a state of crisis now because the oppressed peoples of the world are actively resisting American tyranny... this is why we see in these leaked Wikileaks documents about Afghanistan that we are not prevailing against the insurgency there... this is why our troops in Iraq had to take up arms a matter of weeks after we had officially withdrawn all of our "combat troops" (more double-talk media trickery, of course). We cannot and should not win these wars. This is not easy for some people to hear, they think we are talking shit about the troops and they think about Daddy who served in the war, and this makes them mad to hear someone say that we should not prevail in our imperialist war against Iraq and Afghanistan...but of course, this is not a judgement of the moral character of individuals who are used by the government  to carry out its brutal genocidal policies... this is about the POLICIES themselves, this is about the system of parasitic capitalism whose continuation is dependent on the sacrificial enlistment of impoverished people who are forced to join the military from lack of options.

If you disagree with this, don't be shy, let's talk about it. The media is trying to control the types of conversations we are having, by focusing so disproportionately on foolishness like Pastor Jones. Let's talk about the convergence of forces in the world and the emergence of a new system. This is the conversation we need to be having before it's too late for us to take action.

-Jesse Nevel

 

Without even getting into the reasons and arguments about why we are there in the first place, I must say that the idea of self-determination for the Afghani people before the American presence is ludicrous; they were, after all, ruled by the Taliban. Not exactly a prevailing advocate for self-determination. Or perhaps we are neglecting to remember that 50% of the population known as women. I suppose it's easy to do considering that they were hidden so deeply beneath the burqa, unable to even leave the confines of their homes without a male relative for an escort. Denied access to education or any way to earn a living, the women were under the utter control of the men in their lives. For any moral transgression - real, imagined or just plain made-up - a father, brother, husband or uncle could mete out any punishment they felt necessary on their women, up to and including death through brutal methods such as stoning or being buried alive. Speaking of brutality, for the simple transgression of being born female, women were subjected to the barbaric practice of female circumcision at the onset of their first menses and then married off to men more than three times their age.  Of course, many of these practices still exist, but unlike under the Taliban who encouraged them, they are illegal under the new laws. The hope is in the enforcement. Women throughout Arabia are subjected to these atrocities, but why should we focus on them? They are after all only women. That makes them inhuman and inconsequential, right?

April

 

April you begin your paragraph by saying "Without even getting into the reasons and arguments about why we are there in the first place", of course it is convenient for you to attempt to exclude this from our discussion. Why do you think this is a piece that you just can skip over? We invaded Afghanistan as a means to establish control over their resources and profit US economic interests. Imperialist wars are always lucrative for US business interests, oil companies, defense contractors, private security firms (mercenaries). The Taliban was not the reason for this war, nor did the oppression of women have any influence on the American government's decision to invade. The US government has supported the Taliban when it has benefited US economic interests. In the 70s, Afghanistan was governed by a Soviet-backed Communist regime before the US government funded and provided CIA training to the armed rebel factions of the Mujahedeen (including Osama Bin Laden) to provoke a Soviet invasion. We're talking about a covert war, waged by the US to de-stablize the country and plunge it into a state of chaos which could be easily exploited. Two of the armed factions funded by the CIA -- Harakat-e Islami and Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi -- later joined together to form the Taliban. How can you say "the idea of self-determination for the Afghani people before the American presence is ludicrous" when there has never been a period where America was not imposing its colonial domination on the people of Afghanistan? For decades prior to the current military occupation, America has had a "presence" in Afghanistan either through direct occupation or through military backing of oppressive factions who protect US interests.  Only after the resisting people of Afghanistan have forced out every last trace of US imperialism will there ever be a possibility for real Afghani self-determination.

-Jesse Nevel

 

Your assertion that I am excluding anything out of this discussion as a matter of convenience is completely incorrect. The Taliban are most certainly the reason we are in Afghanistan; we were, without a doubt, attacked by this regime. What I am doing is directing attention to the fact that if we were to fail in our efforts in Afghanistan, as you stated we should, the country would most certainly be taken over by the Taliban once again which would intensify the oppression against Afghani women. Make no mistake, the oppression Afghani women face is slavery. If half the nation is bound by the chains of slavery, there can be no self-determination. Is history important? Of course it is. In 1979, Afghanistan had very little evidence of religious fanaticism and was making great progress in the area of women's rights. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was brutal; more than a million Afghans were killed and all progess stopped. Our biggest mistake in Afghanistan was abandoning them after we equipped and trained them to defeat the Soviet invaders. After years of war, the country was left with a fragile infrastructure that was ripe for the picking for an oppressive, fanatical regime to take over, and that is exactly what happened. We should not make this mistake again. Suddenly leaving Afghanistan at this point would mean leaving them to the control of the Taliban. We are there and we have a responsibility to the Afghan people. -April

 

"The Taliban are most certainly the reason we are in Afghanistan; we were, without a doubt, attacked by this regime." Actually, the US blamed 9/11 on Al Qaeda. We accused the Taliban of harboring bin Laden and providing him with aid, which, ironically, is exactly what we had done in the late 70s and early 80s. The Taliban told the US they would willingly give up bin Laden's location if we could provide any evidence that he had actually orchestrated the attacks. We could not.

We provoked the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and this has even been admitted by high-ranking government officials including Carter's National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski. Regardless, the anti-Soviet stance does not excuse the way the US has exploited violent factions in Afghanistan for our own purposes and continue to do so.

"We are there and we have a responsibility to the Afghan people." Now I remember that you are a Rudyard Kipling fan! You are reiterating the old colonial mindset of the White Man's Burden, the paternalistic assumption that we have some responsibility to impose our influence on the peoples of the world, as if we are better equipped and well-intentioned to manage their countries. The colonial occupations in Afghanistan and Iraq are two major examples of imperialism plain and simple. The fact that violence (US-sponsored and otherwise) has embroiled Afghanistan in the past is not justification for the continued genocide against the Afghani people.

I woke up this morning and saw yet another article about the rampant abuse and torture of Iraqis under US occupation. It is glaringly obvious that our invasions in Iraq and Afghanistan are not motivated by huminatarian interests, not to mention the drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen and our covert operations all over the world.

- Jesse

 

here, cut in, and revise for a unified voice. more on kipling and literature/empire

 

Cute! Mentioning my choice of fiction as a mindset. I also like Stephen King and Jane Austin.  I wonder what that means? Yes, we do have a responsiblity. The thousands of Cambodians slaughtered after we pulled out of Vietnam are evidence of that.

 

I notice you refuse to address the situation of the Afghani women. Do you not find their plight important? Do you not see that enslaving them is the exact opposite of self-determination? 

- April

 

Haha, I have no idea what it means that you like Jane Austen, perhaps you should consult Edward Said about that.

I did not "refuse to address" the oppression of women in Afghanistan, I acknowledged it earlier, and obviously I'd agree with you that it is not consistent with self-determination. You are attempting to frame this as a conflict between the US and the Taliban. The oppression of women was not a deciding factor in the invasion of Afghanistan. You are holding up the issue of the oppression of women disingenuously to avoid talking about the real brutal oppression that women, men, and children in Afghanistan are facing everyday under US occupation. Instead you make the implication that my position does not recognize sexist oppression as a legitimate problem. That is simply an exploitive, self-serving tactic on your part.

 In light of all of this, I'm not surprised that you would actually bring up Vietnam as an example of a US-led military conflict that should have continued for longer than it did. We dropped 6.5 million tons of bombs and 400,000 tons of napalm, and still you criticize the decision to pull out of Vietnam. Your call for further intervention echoes the insatiable bloodlust of the American Empire. 

Your Cambodia reference once again conveniently ignores the significance of US intervention in Cambodia's struggle for self-determination. I'm assuming you know that the Nixon administration started dropping bombs on eastern Cambodia in 1969. I'm assuming you know that the Khmer Rouge was only able to rise to power after the Cambodian Prince Norodom Sihanouk was ousted in a US-backed coup. 

Despite the world-wide oppression and destruction caused by US and European imperialism for the benefit of the global capitalist ruling class elite, despite the presence of military bases all over the planet… you still maintain that the US government has not intervened enough in worldly affairs! I can't argue against this without repeating myself, so instead I will end by quoting a line from Full Metal Jacket: "Hardcore, man. Fucking hardcore." 

-Jesse

 

I am glad that you finally stated clearly that the oppression of women is not consistent with self-determination. You had brushed by that fact so quickly, that I wasn't sure. No, they are not the reason we are there right now, but they should be a major consideration in what we do now. If we fail in Afghanistan, which you stated we should, then we fail these women. Vietnam is a good example of this for certain. There were a lot of mistakes made (as you point out) and entire courses of study, books, dissertations, music, poetry and so much more has been written evaluating the mistakes. A major focus of much of the study is an effort to never let the mistakes happen again. The major loss of life in Cambodia due to our mistakes and eventual failure in the region is a lesson we must not forget. This time not only are we talking about an ethnic group, but also an entire gender. We cannot repeat our failure in Afghansitan, we cannot fail these women.

 

That is my point, we are there. Regardless of the reasons that brought us there, we are there. The past should be studied, evaluated and learned from, but it cannot be changed. You base your argument on reasons of the past for why we should fail. You believe that we should never have been in Afghanistan in the first place and therefore no good can come of it. I cannot and will not support your idea that failure is the best outcome for so many reasons, but one glaringly obvious reason, and the one I decided to discuss here, is the devastation that will be brought upon every woman in Afghanistan if the US fails and the Taliban regains control.

 

By the way, you use an interesting and very aggressive form of debate. You use emotionally charged words like "disingenuously" and "conveniently ignores" to put the person on the defensive, which is of course always the weaker place to argue from. Your method walks the line between legitimate debate and ad hominem attack so closely that the line becomes almost imperceivable.  I find this method irritating, but thus far, I have not been offended, though I can see where others reading this may think I have reason to be offended. They probably don't know that we are old classmates and chums and I can almost hear your tone in my head as I read this. (I giggled with the FMJ quote). If I ever felt like you were crossing the line, I would simply end the debate. I will debate a great many things, but I will not debate my integrity or character. -April

 

April, I am glad you have not been offended by my words. Also, I can accept the fact that you find my method irritating, that's okay with me. As long as no lines have been crossed, then we should continue this discussion.

I gotta say I am thrilled to be participating on this wiki and dialoguing with you again!  

Now… I want to highlight a few articles relating to America's imperialist wars...

Here is one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html 

Photographs from US prisons in Iraq depict American soldiers raping women and sexually assaulting them with objects including a truncheon, wire, and a phosphorescent tube. Another picture shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts. Obama has blocked the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs depicting brutal rape, torture, and sexual abuse committed by American soldiers, fearing that “[t]he most direct consequence of releasing them… would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.” Why do you think these photographs would inflame anti-American opinion? Those photos expose the TRUTH. Those photos expose the ugly realities of American imperialism: rape, torture, abuse, and murder. To pretend like our military presence in the Middle East somehow represents a defense of the rights of women is absolutely preposterous. We are equally brutal in our treatment of women, if not worse. 

Lima Nabil, a journalist who runs a home for on-the-run girls, reports: "In Abu Ghraib, women were tortured by the Americans much more than the men. One woman said she witnessed five girls being raped. Most of the women in the prison were raped – some of them left prison pregnant. Families killed some of these women – because of the shame."

We are not there to provide humanitarian aid. We are not there to support self-determination and economic empowerment for the masses of Afghani and Iraqi people. We are there as occupiers, as foreign invaders, who have no respect for the people, the land or the culture. According to the most conservative estimates, the total number of Iraqi & Afghan civilian casualties is at least 1,035,587. This does not include the staggering number of deaths of so-called 'insurgents' who are really just Iraqi and Afghani citizens who are actively fighting back against the thuggish, oppressive US military occupation.  

If we really have a "responsibility" to protect the women of Afghanistan, then we should withdraw our troops. Perhaps you heard about the group of American soldiers who rode around murdering civilians and cutting off their fingers to keep as trophies. (They were put on trial of course. Imperialism always covers its ass by punishing its scapegoats.) These are not "mistakes." This is the real face of warfare, the inevitable outcome of a brutal military occupation.

How are these soldiers capable of committing such heinous acts? Because they, too, have been dehumanized by the horrors of war. Their desire to be "loyal" and "patriotic" has been exploited by the wealthy elite who are too cowardly to sacrifice their own lives in order to defend their own selfish economic interests. The soldiers are merely pawns in the grand chessboard of global capitalism.  

It has been suggested that the construction of an oil pipeline was one of our primary imperial ambitions in the invasion of Afghanistan, but this article here is even more revealing as to our intentions: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/afghanistans-resources-could-make-it-the-richest-mining-region-on-earth-2000507.html 

"Afghanistan, often dismissed in the West as an impoverished and failed state, is sitting on $1 trillion of untapped minerals, according to new calculations from surveys conducted jointly by the Pentagon and the US Geological Survey." America and Europe are already vying for control over these resources. It is no coincidence that US military officials were on the exploration teams and the Pentagon was writing mineral memos. 

It is quite frustrating when the apologists of imperialism try to defend the invasions of Afghanistan/Iraq by pointing out that women were oppressed in those countries before we invaded, as if we marched into the Middle East under the banner of feminism with the noble mission of protecting women from oppression. This is a ludicrous idea. There is nothing more abusive and oppressive to women (and all human beings) than being daily massacred, beaten, abused, tortured, imprisoned and raped by the soldiers and mercenaries who are paid to carry out the disgusting objectives of American imperialism.

 

-Jesse

 

Jesse - I take issue with a lot of what you have written here and I have a lot to say, but unfortunately, I'm not in the position to respond at the moment. I am feeling completely overwhelmed by my classload and need to focus my energies quite narrowly in order to keep up. I will come back to this later, but in the meantime, please do not feel ignored! Thanks! - April 

 

 

I'd really like to know why all of a sudden Pastor Terry Jones is being labeled as a child pornographer? Last I checked child pornography is a serious crime, which you tend to serve serious time. The pastor of the church I grew up in, who was discovered to having been involved in child pornography, got locked up for it, just like my dad, who ironically had sought council from him in prior years. Child pornography and child abuse (specifically sexual, since it was mentioned) is ABSOLUTELY NOT a thing to joke about and I'm disgusted that it would even be mentioned without concrete evidence. Aren't we trying to avoid labeling people and respect the opinions of others?

I disagree with what Pastor Terry is saying 100%. So, I guess not all Christians are like this... I also think that burning the American flag is wrong, but I guess my opinion on that doesn't matter either, since it's legal. Like April is saying, the women in Middle Eastern countries deserve freedom as much as any other person alive on this planet. While many intentions behind the war are wrong and many bad decisions have been made, there are so many more ways that we are offering security and protection to these people. I think it's ridiculous to ridicule a person based on their poor decisions. One person says we need to fight the laws while another declares that General Patraeus enjoys the tragic deaths that have occurred as a result of the war. I'm thinking neither one of you have talked to many soldiers who have come back from the war. Here's a clue, they don't talk about it! I don't blame them, they are doing their job, which is to the best of human judgment. It's not always right or wrong, many times somewhere in between and you just do what needs to be done. We all have rights as Americans thanks to these men and women, and that includes being able to choose which authors we choose to read and enjoy, which should be accepted without disrespect from fellow classmates. -Lauren

 

Trying to stay out of this conversation is like running from a magnet. These talks can quickly spiral into people talking at each other, instead of with each other, which is fruitless. But here goes. The preceding post sparked me in a variety of ways, starting with the sexual abuse issue. I see many people get away with sexual abuse because child victims are not able to bear witness for themselves. Also, a lot of perpetrators are themselves children. It's an incredibly complicated issue and since I actually work to bring some of those creeps to justice, I sometimes end the day crying about it. I do not feel anyone was making light of the issue on this page, but I have a 'thick skin'.

 

What I want to know is, when will law enforcement agencies start holding the Catholic priesthood accountable for their actions? That's organized religion at its worst: the State takes a backseat and leaves the Pope to figure it out. It's a perfect example of the absolute perversion of justice: attack the weak and let the strong police themselves (mmm, that sounds familiar). I think the Pope should send every victim a personal apology, sell off the Vatican's opulent, wasteful stores, give the proceeds to a true charity and then RESIGN. NOW. With a vow of silence to think about his actions. This may sound harsh, but how else can he make amends for the systematic rape of generations of people by the organization he heads up?

 

"...Here's a clue, they don't talk about it! I don't blame them, they are doing their job, which is to the best of human judgment. It's not always right or wrong, many times somewhere in between and you just do what needs to be done. We all have rights as Americans thanks to these men and women"

 

The other issue I have is with this reference to the troops. I don't equate a policy maker like Petraeus with the ordinary soldier. Though the post doesn't explicitly state it, the subtext reads: if you don't support the war, then you don't support the troops. Or perhaps, to pass judgment on the war is to pass judgment on the troops. I disagree. I think democratic patriotism requires people to question their leaders and their government, and that they should be able to do this free from the charge of not supporting the troops. As the poster stated, the troops "just do what needs to be done". The argument lies in figuring out what exactly that entails. The post also says, "there are so many more ways that we are offering security and protection to these people." How so? From what I've heard and read, Afghanistan remains pretty unstable.

 

Though your opinion about flag burning may differ from the law, it's still important, valid and worth sharing. That's the undercurrent of this thread: speak up, it matters what one thinks, don't accept a law or a State foreign policy at face value.

 

Lauren, I do not want to be misunderstood. I fully understand that child pornography is a serious crime and was not intending to trivialize it by referring to the activities of Pastor Jones and I admit that I should have elaborated on my labelling of Jones as a child pornographer. There were numerous news reports on Pastor Jones's involvement with proliferating child pornography on Limewire, in addition to enslaving children as laborers in his furniture factory, which were later downplayed by a mainstream media that was too busy obsessing on his Quran-burning shenanigans. I was not joking about it. About serving serious time for the serious crime of child pornography, there are countless people (including people who work in the Pentagon) who have been implicated for child pornography and do not end up serving serious time or any time at all. The closer you are to the top of the pyramid, the more likely you will get away with it. Consider the fact that, in the time leading up to the planned Quran-burning, Pastor Jones was in contact with the FBI on numerous occasions and perhaps they offered him immunity in exchange for calling off the burning. That last part is speculation of course. Also, I was not expressing disrespect to April for the authors she chooses to read and enjoy. I think April knows that. I was pointing out that her argument was reminiscent of a similar argument set forth by Mr. Kipling.

- Jesse

 

Compositionalists, there are so many subtle layers of communication and commons-formation happening in this thread! A page is born when a topical exigence and media-driven attention-well is brought to our wiki's attention ("adam is everywhere"-kms), and then the distributed intelligence sparks a bone fide exploration through multiple perspectives offering many avenues for research and action, by means of meaningful dialogue drenched in purpose, prolepsis, passion, and persuasive appeals. Even if you are not compelled to participate in the shaping of this series of statements, you can also learn a lot just by analyzing this elements that make up this scene of writing (grab your copy of Weston, MGH, or favorite reference guide ). Therefore, this page--or something like it, it terms of real engagement--just became mandatory. Shape it (add, subtract, revise, rearrange, develop, etc) or break it down. You will notice that two of the more active participants here know each other and have collaborated on writing projects in the past. Writing together via counterargument with a respected interlocutor in this way is a sure-fire path to finding a real and actual audience--the real audience of your writing is often a real potential participant in your projects. How would you shape the direction of this living text? Click edit and shred it.  -ShareRiff

 

 

 

Holy shit, this video is hilarious. BRILLIANT.... "actually, the US blamed 9 over 11 on al-qeeda" ...  And the wiggle-dance at the end had my nearly crying from laughter. Excellent work.

- Jesse 

 

This is really great. Jesse's compositional eloquence really shines through when read out loud.

We should feed the entire wiki through this (or something like this). How many characters can you have?

Maybe we should just dress up and print out some wiki pages, each take a voice, and do a public reading.

-Adam

 

This is made of complete awesomeness! Einstein Jesse and April the Dancing Queen - LOVE IT!!!!

-April